SWMBO

[Raven]

I thought that might get your attention. This acronym is used a lot on woodworking boards (it means She Who Must Be Obeyed), and is usually in reference to the woodworkers wife. What do you think of this acronym? I'll start out with my 2 cents. Personally I find this to be demeaning to women. It implies inequality and a host of other things. Now I have read the origins of this acronym, and believe that most people don't mean it as a jab at women, but it is. The use of any word or phrase that puts women in an adversarial role or an unequal role is not ok in my book. I would never refer to my partner as someone that is not equal with me.
It is one of those phrases that has been readily accepted with a wink and a nod, but the insidiousness of it reeks, no matter how harmless the intent is. If you substitute the word wife, or partner, in a post, the whole flavor changes. It's a small version of oppression, but its still there. Ok, now let's hear from you.

Raven

[pampine]

I agree. On the wreck (rec.woodworking) it's used all the time, so I occasionally use HWMBO when referring to Jack, the LOML, which I much prefer as an acronym. The wreck is a somewhat hostile group in general, for men and women, but especially for women.

At Neanderthal Haven, a hand powered tools only subgroup at Badger Pond, LOML takes precedence; so it may well be that galoots have a kinder, gentler approach to life, something about more physical exertion and a lot quieter environment, being able to listen to music while we work, or whistling, or....

Pam

[edfan]

LAST EDITED ON May-26-01 AT 12:56PM (CDT)

I know what Pam means. Whew. I took a dive into Piranha Lake at rec.woodworking not long ago. As a matter of fact, it had to do with this very space - someone criticized a place named to attract "women in woodworking" as if it were some ghastly anti-male hangout devoted to spermicides. Cuz everything online is about HIM, apparently. It's not an unusual reaction.

The fighting was tiresome and useless, though I felt obliged to hang in there long enough to lower the probability of immediate similar attacks on other new women users. I didn't want this space dissed without somebody paying a price, even if it was just a little irritation.

Not that there are a whole lot of new, obviously female users in public newsgroups that often. Women tend to be timid about poking their heads out - they see where that can lead. A few women have to take it on and slug it out, else these boyz egg one another on even worse. I've seen groups deteriorate with breathtaking swiftness when none of the women fight back. Entire message boards simply lost all their women users within a single weekend.

I've been online a long time. Male turf is a mine field for women. Men are not even kind to one another, there's a lot of antler-butting going on most days. Bring in a woman and you might as well put a neon bullseye on her chest. Well, her back anyway. You can get anonymous hate mail after a dustup.

I once routinely took on male userIDs in order to get help without kissing everybody's ring. Some of the Good Ole Boyz who ignored a female sounding userID answered the same questions cheerfully when it came from "Johnsmith@boyzclub.com." I've had to do the same at swap meets. Send a guy in to bargain for a widget.

Some days I get furious at the utter unfairness of it. One does get used to it though. You learn to smile and grin and shuffle your feet - and run like hell the minute you've learned what you need to know to finish the project. It's part of the environment, a hazard we must learn to negotiate. The numbers are on our side. We need to hang tight until the demographic shift is complete. A generation or two of seeing women in woodworking shops and classes and all that should lower the reflexive disrespect. Meanwhile, slug it out a few times. You get used to that too. You do what you must.

[pampine]

There is a cabal at the wreck who make sure they remind me every 3 or 4 weeks (must correspond to their male menopause cycles) that I don't belong there; but generally I've gotten a lot of support from the guys who dislike the cabal members as much as I do, these guys send me friendly, go-gettum, type private emails. One even instigated a short lived "Pam for president" thread after my caustic response to one of the nastiest cabal members, who has made the mistake of also ridiculing a lot of the men. Of course, the most egregious cabal members know I've filtered and plonked them.

And there are several truly fine, professional woodworkers there who've been very supportive in "on topic" messages, which tends to dampen the cabal's enthusiasm for a while.

I also think it's finally getting through to the cabal, after a bit more than a year, that they've picked the wrong person to engage in a verbal argument, that I'll give back at least as good as I get. I do have an exit strategy, but don't want to publish it publicly, who knows what trolls lurk.... :)

Pam

[Barbara Gill]

I do not find the acronym objectionable. In fact I don't mind being my husband's SWMBO; e both use it with tongue in cheek and affection.

The first time I heard SWMBO was on PBS on Mystery Theater, Horace Rumpole used it with affection toward his wife in recognition of a female trait. I thought it was benign then and thought it would make for an interesting T-shirt. SWMBO was not original to John Mortimer but I don't remember who originated the designation. Unfortunately the term is being used indiscriminately by mostly men many of whom probably never even heard of John Mortimer. SWMBO has become a cliche. If you think about it for a little while you will realize that only those phrases which ring true last as cliches.

I do find male bashing objectionable and in poor taste. I also find female bashing to be objectionable and in poor taste. Both seem to be done primarily by those insecure individuals of both sexes.

Now, to make everybody angry. I participate on at least 12 woodworking forums and three chats. With the exception of this forum all are male dominated. I use my real name, not a false one. My questions have never been ridiculed; I have never been criticized. I certainly have never received the welcome Lee received the other day. I choose to operate a sawmill, install high end custom wood floors rather than use my Master's degree. My primary avocation is woodworking. All are male dominated. I have not in the 15 years I have been operating my sawmill been treated with anything but respect.

In fact, almost all my woodworking knowledge has been from male sources. The male craftsmen from whom I learned, the male dominated magazines and the men who have written the several hundred books I have upstairs. Why don't we just forget this male female stuff and just take advantage of all the information available?

I always tell people, don't ask my opinion unless you really want to hear it. :-)


Barbara
www.velvitoil.com (http://www.velvitoil.com)

[lynn]

Raven,
When this forum first came to life there was a gentleman that was on the rec.woodworking forum bashing this forum. He finally found this place and said some not nice things. He was warned by the administrator and calmed down. Then another man came on and asked for advice from the women because he had made SWMBO mad by missing their anniversary. There were quite a few women who took offense, and several commented that it wasn't a woodworking question. I wrote to him privately and he was very rude in his reply. I asked him to keep topics on woodworking and that he may offend some women, me included with the phrase. He continued to be rude on the board, the first man then joined in and they were both banned by the administrator. It was ugly. I think SWMBO is deragatory and degrading. This country was founded on the premise of freedom of speech, but not at the expense of another's feelings. I think women still have a struggle to prove themselves in many areas, which is difficult enough. Why should we tolerate a phrase that continues to show women in a negative light. We have enough to do.
lynn

"hope springs eternal"

[Slowpoke (Guest)]

If the man in your life uses the term SWMBO, in his writeings on a forum. He isn't doing it as a derogatory comment, but as a way of saying you are the love of his life. He is saying to who read his answer on any forum, that he loves his wife very much and wants all to know this. So if some women take this as insult they must not think that the man in their life loves them very much. So ladys when your husband comes up with a nickname like SWMBO accept it, because it might be his way of saying I LOVE YOU
WITH ALL MY HEART.

I was raised in a home without any love, so I have a hard time saying I love you to anyone I have feelings for. But i find ways to say it, like flowers with a drawn heart on the note. So lady's sit back and think of what them words say and mean coming from your husband.
(not married but wish I was)
Slowpoke

[John Lucas]

I have thoruoughly enjoyed this forum in the couple of weeks I have visited. One of the things I have enjoyed most is the focus on woodworking and not all the diatribe that the other forums can have...with cute innuendos, acronyms, "hehehe's" "LOL" and plain off color, and worse, comments and jokes. I don't want to sound like a prude, but I am here to learn and share. Fortunately, I can mouse right by most of the posts on other forums that are not wood related.

I appreciate those of you who accept the acronym as an expression of love. I am not sure I agree, but attitude counts.

Enjoy your woodworking. This forum is very nice. And thanks for letting one male have a say.

Sincerely,
John Lucas
www.woodshopdemos.com (http://www.woodshopdemos.com)

[handi]

I was going to leave this topic alone, but since it is Memorial Day weekend, I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

On Memorial Day we honor those men and women who have died serving this country in times of war. As a combat veteran, this is a significant event for me.

Probably the most important right they died to protect was that of free speech. It is imperative to our nation's survival that free speech is the first of our liberties, regardless of how heinous and offensive that speech might be.

That being said, nowhere in the constitution is there any guarantee of and audience. Poeple have every right to think and say whatever they feel, but I DO NOT have to listen or support that speech in ANY way.

Personally, I have neither the time or energy to put up with rude or offensive people, and certainly not within the context of a forum supposedly for enjoyment. That is why this forum is always my first stop when I log on, and often my only forum stop. :)

I look more to the attitude and intent of a word or phrase rather than the phrase itself, but I also try to be aware of other peoples possible feelings. I don't find SWMBO offensive, but I can certainly see how others may. I don't use it because that is not how my marriage works.

My belief has always been to treat people with respect up to the point that they prove they do not deserve it, then I dust off my sandals and move on.

Just my thoughts,

Ralph

[alcheka]

I fail to see what all of the preceeding messages have to do with woodworking. As women have we not learned to tune out the men who would like to suppress us in anyway they can, with whatever acronymns they can come up with. I come to this site to see what's going on in woodworking, but most the time I can not find any interesting discussions about wood or woodworking. Most people tend to use this site as a crying towel.

Now on to woodworking, I'm in the process of setting up a workshop in my yard, it's not a big shop 12'x16'. The floor is painted and I have started to put in the electrical fixtures. I would like to build some useful work benches. Can anyone suggest a good site where I can find some plans? I usually use what I refer to as craft tools, scroll saw, 8" drill press and a chop saw, but I also want to fit in my router and table saw. I would like to put the router and table saw on wheels so I can get them out of my way when I'm not using them.

PS: I too have a husband who is a pain in the neck when it comes to woodworking, he is full of opinions on everything I am doing. Nothing I want to do is right with him, I should always be doing it a different way. What is my aproach to this guy, I listen to everything he says, I respond with "Yes dear you might be right", then I promptly forget everything he said, and go on and do what I want to do. Is he helping me to build the shop, why yes, he grabs a beer and a chair, blops himself down in the middle of the shop, and watches me work.

Well, I think I'll go out to the shop and put that second coat of paint on the floor, at least that will keep him out of my way.

[D for Dusty]

LAST EDITED ON May-27-01 AT 10:59AM (CDT)

I wholeheartedly agree with John L, Barb G, and most of all Handi..There is no room for rude people!! But they are out there and especially on line..They are faceless, they are invisible, so they can say what they please and thats the way most cowards are... You can sit and listen or you can up and leave. The freedom of speech doesnt discriminate, but unfortunately there are those that take advantage in crude, rude and uncaring ways!! Fortunately there are forums such as this, that wont tolerate them. I do not find SWMBO offensive..as a matter of fact I could see my husband saying that to me. I smile and tell him he has finally caught on.. He smiles, I smile and go on our way. A few he calls me is "my bride, the warden and a few that I wont mention..smile (they are private)!!!We all need to relax and get along..WE all know how to take care of the ones that dont.. My feeling is if one dishes it out, they darn well better know how to take it and most of the belittling people dont!!!

[handi]

Alcheka,

I'd start with a web search. The websites of most of the magazines have search areas where you can look at back issues and old projects. I know that every magazine has done a number of bench articles over the years. WoodSmith had a good one not too long ago. The December 1999 issue of American Woodworker has a neat adjustable height bench that has fold away legs. The type of work you describe seems like bench dogs and such would be of little interest, but benches that easily move and/or store out of the way might be very useful.

Hope this helps,

Ralph

[Eljay]

I had a long post written and then figured I would not jump in.
But I had to share, my boyfriend for life calls me Atilla the Honey.
Eljay

[LEONARD (Guest)]

Raven - I would reply to this but dusty took all the words out of my mouth and that's sometimes hard to do. I would say onething though men whom have little respect for their wives can't respect themselves. As for me I have a great deal of respect for myself and even more respect for ladies who can produce the kind of work that makes me proud to know them such as we do. So you ladies keep making the wonderful gifts and furniture tha makes peoples lives a little brighter. Have fun and be creative.
leonard

[edfan]

LAST EDITED ON May-28-01 AT 02:36PM (CDT)

Not to extend an argument but I've heard the "Nobody ever disses me, I get nuthin' but respect" story for YEARS, simply years. And not just from women who've made an art form of denial. It feels a lot like people who say, "Well, *I* wouldn't ever jog in Central park after dark," to soothe their own fear after hearing of an assault. If you can view attacks as the result of someone doing something wrong, YOU are safer cuz you can avoid what brought it on.

If you dig into various histories of demographic clashes, it's an old old story: the idea that SOME members get treated with no difference promotes the idea that prejudice isn't real, it is the victim's fault if (s)he is treated like dirt. If some members are not discriminated against, it must be something the rest are DOING that makes the majority whosits disrespect them in particular.

It is a nasty side effect of living as a member of a stigmatized minority (of any sort) that denial becomes comfortable. Sometimes it's even a survival mechanism. It's upsetting to think you're on enemy turf. Hypervigilance is enervating.

It is EXTREMELY common for minorities to be afraid to critcize those who target them. They frequently make fun of themselves vigorously, the better to prove they're really not criticizng The Man. (Who ever saw a WHITE minstrel show?)

If women were not treated with so much disdain in the woodworking community, this topic would not have any valence. Women are, therefore the topic does. This is going to come up repeatedly and might even be a subtext under a great deal of chat here. I don't think it needs to be avoided. It's just reality.

[pampine]

Precisely, and then there's often the "Queen Bee" attitude, which goes something like "...I was able to succeed in the face of this supposed disadvantage, therefore you can, too if you work real hard....".

Pam

[D for Dusty]

LAST EDITED ON May-28-01 AT 07:46PM (CDT)

What the hell??? How did the simple question of, "is SWMBO demeaning to women?? To the woodworkers wife??? Why, Raven did you have to bring this up?? Is SWMBO so offensive?? I wouldnt jog in Central Park after dark and a man shouldnt either!!! I wouldnt jog in my own neighborhood here in Maine, after dark!!!!..Does it really warrant all this attention?? Granted women have been thought of inferior thoughout the years.?? But this issue here is apples and oranges ladies and gents, (mostly ladies) to what Ed has written...Are we really talking prejudice? Granted women in woodworking is not a common thing. Grin and bear it!! The more the better, and it will get better..Often when you go to the hardware store or the lumber yard one is not used to the females asking the questions. I am still uncomfortable myself..its new to me!!! Im not in denial and I dont think most here are. Are we really targeted?? No...but we are a minority!!! deal with it.
Pam, where are you with this?? Where theres a disadvantage, would you rather sit back and forget it or succeed? I, personally have not run into adversary situations when purchasing tools, wood or just asking questions, its ones attitude that stands in the way!!!
Just my thoughts...MarciaD..

[edfan]

"Why don't we just forget this male female stuff and just take advantage of all the information available?"

How do we forget who we are? I don't see how we can, any more than we forget other factors which affect our woodworking experience such as height or hand size. The world reminds us often enough that most women do not meet equal expectations when they "step out of bounds." The problems caused are real.

We are using dangerous tools designed by men for other men. Enough of us are ignored in our tool-user roles that it affects our ability to pick up "all the information available." For instance, there are women on this board right now who were forbidden to take woodworking classes in their early school years - who are still not comfortable with power tools many years later. I'd like this not to happen to more generations.

I recall meeting a Dewalt rep at a woodworking show in the early 90s who seemed flummoxed that the trigger guard on an expensive cordless drill cut my finger - it was designed for a much larger hand. He laughed, as I recall. For some reason, one of the most obvious things about women users - they're usually smaller than men - was left out of that design program.

I bought a Panasonic. Later, I bought Bosch and Makita. In fact, now I think about it, a circular saw is the only DeWalt tool I own.

I think the Italians are missing a big boat by not selling in the USA more. They have a design philosophy - and small sized male population - that might export profitably.

We don't change into men by walking into Home Depot. I think it'd be nice if they accommodated us. If they won't, let's shop elsewhere. I kinda feel that way in general.

[pampine]

Where am I with this? I'm old enough (54) to have had to fight for most everything career wise (software development), beat my head against many ceilings for years until I walked away from corporate America in disgust, started my own business (20 years ago), settled for less money but a lot more sanity. I'd like to think it's easier for those coming behind me, that maybe, just maybe, I helped create a wake.

I've also been duking it out on the wreck with the cabal for the last year, very hard work. But they are only a subset, there are many extremely helpful men there.

Yes, I'd rather work hard and succeed than not, do it day in and day out; but fact is, hard work is not a guarantee. And even young women today just can't say they've never experienced discrimination based on gender, unless they live in little bubbles. Now maybe in some cases we don't hear the criticisms, nasty little jokes, and the like; but don't kid yourself, they're there, just out of our hearing.

Pam

[Raven]

Why did I post this topic? I believe that lively and spirited debate is always a good thing. I also believe that respect is very important. Just for the record, I have to say that the men and women on this board have always been fabulous, giving sound advice and healthy doses of respect all around. I think that one of the telling factors is that no one uses the term SWMBO on this board. The one time it did happen our administrator jumped in and said that that wouldn't be tolerated. I have always been in the trenches fighting for women's rights, civil rights, and a bevy of other things that are important to me. Now I could "grin and bear it", but thats just not who I am. I have run into many situations where I have felt discrimination as a minority, and its not a nice feeling. I'm not so niave to think that everyone would agree with me on this topic, and thats ok. I would like to see a situation where women feel empowered and supported, and I think that this forum is a place for that. If we can talk about some of these topics in a lively and respectful way, so much the better. The thing is, terms like SWMBO affect me as much as figuring out how to set hinges. I can see that this topic has brought up many feelings all around, and I guess that was what I was looking for. I believe that semantics do affect us, and an awareness of how is one step closer to breaking down walls. If we can change that " granted women have been thought of as inferior through the years" then we are headed in the right direction.

Raven

[Flyinghorse]

Just thought I'd throw in a fact that people seem to over look, and that is that women are in majority. There are more women on this planet than men. So we are, as far as I know, the only majority that is discriminated against.
And one of the best ways to fight discrimination is to come together as a group, to support each other, encourage each other and educate each other. So that we are empowered to take action when needed, to stand up for ourselves, and become the people we know we are entitled to be. Whether it be a Doctor, Jockey, Astonaut, Physisist, Engineer or Woodworker!
And thank you all for providing just that. (and also thanks to Rockler)
I'm getting off my soap box now.

Keep The Faith!
BJ Wilkinson

[edfan]

Slowpoke, I think most adult women can appreciate that a fellow might have trouble expressing himself. And it is a distinctly common Americanism to insult those we care about. But when a person says, openly and flatly, "I don't wanna cross the street," it's rude - maybe worse - to haul them across by force. Even if that's the first way you've thought of to show them you care about them.

You get my drift?

Women complain of this a lot, y'know. "I asked for us to spend more time together. He bought us a bass boat and now I get to wash dishes and do laundry at a camp site by the lake."

Listen. Something's being said underneath.

[D for Dusty]

What you all are saying here is sooo true, but I still dont know why the subject came up?? Only once was the SWMBO used here and it was taken care of...I recall when it was used, I believe and i wasnt sure what it meant. Single white male w/body odor?? I couldnt figure it out..There is not a problem here in this forum..and if we dont smarten our A$$%$ up, this forum will lose the gentlemen that are here offering great advice and answers.....Just my last minute thoughts before my mother in law gets here tomorrow afternoon for two weeks!!! MarciaD

[pampine]

I think the subject was first raised by someone who claimed she'd never experienced any discrimination as a woman mill owner.

As to discussing the topic, I'm not all that crazy about it; but I see no particular reason to censure ourselves on the issue. No one's dumping indiscriminately on men here, so fail to see how this would alienate the men who are here.

Enjoy MIL's visit, everything you don't like about husband is all her fault. :)

Pam

[Barbara Gill]

I don't think so! I think if you go back you will find that the origin of this topic is not my doing. Additionally, it seems very strange to me that several people have challenged the veracity of my statement.

Barbara
www.velvitoil.com (http://www.velvitoil.com)

[D for Dusty]

Pam, #1 I enjoy everything about my man...HE IS PERFECT!!!!or so he says...#2 Thats right, we have not discriminated against men here and neither have they to us.
Im not saying censor, dont mention it, ignore the problem, not at all. Theres plenty of discrimination around, that it doenst have to be brought up unnecessarily..My MIL is coming for my sons graduation and is a computer hog,(like we needed another one in this household). You all have a great day..MarciaD

[pampine]

Indeed, Raven started the topic; but I think we got into discrimination or lack thereof with your message (not a bad thing). And, yes, I have a real hard time believing you've never been discriminated against in business based on gender; but anything's possible.

[barbsiddiqui]

Pam, you'll see that Raven's words were: "term mostly used by men...." and "demeaning to women..." and "oppression." Barbara Gill started nothing in this thread, other than to try for a voice of reason. It is offensive to many that you and Chita are claiming that because some disagree with your attitude, we are "in denial." That is every addict's and handwringer's excuse for their own insecurities. If we as woodworking women have 100% of our experience good with male woodworkers, why would we be "in denial" or adopting a "Queen Bee" attitude? I have two more questions. Why is it the male side of the population (as BJ pointed out, the true minority) is roundly criticized for making affectionate jokes, and the female side of the population can go around wearing Tshirts with "Grow Your Own Dope- Plant A Man"? Last point: If some men act badly toward women, you must consider - Who Raised 'Em? -Barb S.

[Barbara Gill]

Well said Barb.

Barbara
www.velvitoil.com (http://www.velvitoil.com)

[pampine]

First, I don't run around wearing such t-shirts, so put that one on somebody else because I agree with you. Second, I already mentioned the "who raised them" bit in a humorous aside to Dusty.

Third, why would you waste time and energy being offended on this issue? In a message I said something to the effect that "anything was possible", maybe you're in nirvana. If so, please tell me where that is, I'd like to move there. I'm hardly an addict or a handwringer, very far from insecure. Gee, maybe I should be offended now?

Pam

[barbsiddiqui]

That's entirely up to you, Pam. You and I are about the same age...I'll be 52 in a few months. We've lived through the same era of the bra-burning 60s and formulation of NOW. What we seem to have 'left in our wake' is a generation of bitter, holier-than-thou young women who don't even remember the word 'cooperation.'
What I get offended at is someone saying an opinion or observation is wrong because it 'does not face reality.' Seems to me the "you may not hear it, but don't kid yourself, it's out there," idea is just a little paranoid. Any woodworker, man or woman, will get out of something what they put into it, just as in anything in life. We all carry our attitudes with us, and those attitudes will color our perceptions.
It's not a question of 'victimization,' unless people make it so. There is such a thing as just putting one's head down and doing the work. And respect is not something 'deserved automatically.' It is earned.
I have work to do out in the garage. I'll check back later and see how much I've offended everybody. -Barb S.

[D for Dusty]

I also agree Barb..very well said!!!!

[pampine]

It's not as if I dwell on this; but I know that if I had been male I would have been considered an up and comer, would have had mentors and the like in corporate America, been given promotions rather than having had great systems and ideas handed to the next new boy on the block (e.g. I invented Chase's lockbox system, only to have it taken away, quite literally, even when I had a great marketing plan, customer #2 ready to sign up and pay big - this was when I finally gave up on the boys, took off on my own). On the wreck, there's a subset/cabal who make sure they remind me once a month or so that I don't belong there, do everything they can to cull me from the herd. It isn't that I feel victimized, nor am I paranoid (except when driving in traffic), it's that I'm not a sweet young shy thing; but I'm very good at what I do, and I expect to be rewarded for it. Period.

Putting one's head down and doing the work is a given. The only real question is who gets the promotion for a job well done? And yes, a good job deserves respect, automatically. But this is not what happens in corporate America.

Pam

[Carol the Router Lady]

I vote to give this topic a rest and get back to woodworking. In fact, I resolve not read another response on this topic, even to see what any of you have to say about my vote.

Those who want to be offended, will be. The rest of us won't bother.

Woodworking is more fun, ladies (and gents). Bras are too expensive for burning. :)

[lynn]

I'm with Carol. There's sawdust to make and things to create. I have a new shop to set up and want input from everyone. And right now, the energy is going into this topic. Let's talk wood!
lynn

"hope springs eternal"

[pampine]

Not quite sure I follow this logic. Here we have a topic that's clearly of interest, at least based on the number of views; and you and Carol propose killing the topic? Now I understand that it's not of interest to you and Carol, probably many others; but why does it follow that we should kill the topic? Just don't read it.

As to your new shop, I'm sure that is very exciting for you, I share your excitement (I'm finishing up getting my new old shoplette set up, designing a new little building to replace it), I share what is likely your residential neighbor's quiet pleasure :); but what makes you think that your topic is suffering from lack of contribution? Seems like all your questions have been answered, congratulations offered, we're just waiting on your final move.

Pam

[D for Dusty]

I agree with you, Carol and Lynn. Its a topic that was blown way out of proportion, Pam. Why discuss the problem when it doesnt exist here??? That doesnt make sense to me!!! MarciaD

[Lynn (Guest)]

I am NOT complaining about the lack of responses I have gotten. I just agreed with Carol that we are spending alot of time on this subject. I am very grateful to have people respond to my posts. You misread my post. I'm tired of the topic, so I'll avoid it. I'll stop reading, but every time I log on, this topic seems to be on the top of the list. I wasn't taking it personal and you shouldn't either. As to the whole point of this, isn't freedom of speech the freedom to write what you feel? That's what I did.
lynn

[alcheka]

SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed)! This acronym fits me to a tee.
I'm the one in our family who does all the woodworking, plumping, electrical, painting and repairs in our house, and when I ask for help I better be obeyed.
Heaven help the man/woman in the hardware store, or the wood shop who approaches my husband and assumes that he is the one doing the shopping. Heaven help the man who tries to tell me how things should be done when I have a clear picture how I want things. Heaven help the man who comes to help, and then does things the way they think they should be, instead of the way I want them.

Earth hath no fury like the woman who has not been obeyed.

PS Raven: I think this was an interesting topic for you to bring up, and interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.

[Mike]

Well now this has been quite a active topic in the last few days. I have read all the responces and I myself do not use the SWMBO when refering to the LOML--Wife-Bride. If I should ever use it, it would had a S after the O (S= sometimes).I do refer to her as -The Management--Book keeper--Boss Lady-Ginsberg(pet name) but never as SWMBO. Regards Mike

[Alice in Michigan]

My goodness! I go away for a week and come back to find all hell breaking loose here. Like many of you also said, I was going to just read and not add to the fire but now I can't help myself. This is an interesting topic.

I have been referred to as SWMBO for quite a while now and I know that it is almost always used as an endearing term in my case. And when it's not, well I have a thick enough skin not to be bothered by it. It's never been used in a worse-than-lightly-sarcastic way and, hey, I can take it as well as dish it out.

Re. discrimination -- a whole 'nother topic, I think -- I'd always worked in a female dominated occupation, librarianship, until a couple of years ago when I had a mid-life crisis and quit to become a rough carpenter. Wow! Was that ever an eye-opener. I worked with my first honest-to-goodness, real-life male-chauvenist idiots. But you know what? Most of the guys weren't like that. They treated me neither better nor worse than they did each other. Yes, I had to work harder to prove myself but that was mostly because I'm so darn small and they're so darn big and, frankly, that's a job that requires a good deal of physical strength. So I got stronger and that took care of most of it. I did decide not to stay in the field for my livelihood (injury and the realization that being sidelined because of it meant no $$) and returned to librarianship but the skills and life lessons I took away from that experience were invaluable.

To those of you ladies who work in male-dominated fields, I admire you. And to those of you gentlemen who treat us as equals, well, I think your Mothers (and Fathers) did a very good job raising you. And I'm glad you've chosen to retain their teachings.

Alice

[edfan]

Hello - that's just a gross misreading of my message.

Not believing for a New York minute that the speakers who claim they've never been discriminated against are describing REALITY is not the same thing as claiming they are lying. Nobody's asking anybody to sign up for the Third Wave.

[I just now caught up with the fact that a zillion yickyacks went on in this thread and I didn't even know it. I ignored the thread, wasn't even aware it was going on and on.]

[Delena]

This was a very strange topic, and I just had to add to it
I work in a male domanated job kinda. I work at Lumbermens
my boss is a women, she was featured in the local paper years
ago about working a mans job, but she is great and I love having her for a boss she knows her stuff, but she also has been there
scence high school and has had no other job.
Then I worked in a lumber mill for four years, I was the first
women that they hired in ten years( the others were out on state)
that were there before me. I took a lot of sluff. I had statements that were...your taken a mans job...that has to support there family and need it more that you. Well that man should of been there before me and passed the drug test. I did.
It did get old and I stuck it out for 4 years but it wasnt worth
the stress and love my life as it is now....So I hope you all
do whats best to Have a Happy Day :)

[Phil Malo (Guest)]

I read all the posts on this subject.No one(unless i missed a posting)indicated were this term or description if you will,came from.Well Ladies and Gentlemen it is from an old Science Fiction movie having to do with a Tribe being governed by a WOMAN.I use capital letters here because if i remember correctly she is a bad person in this movie.They would have used HWMBO if it would have been a man.
It basically was used by the supposed natives as a TITLE like KING or PRESIDENT.
How the heck it ever started being used to refer to the BETTER HALF i do not know.The term i just used may start even more discussion.I use it to describe my wife because i think she IS the better half.I do not use it in a demeaning way.She is a woman,i am a man.She is english,i am french.She does quilting(quite well i may add),i do woodworking(probably not as well as she does quilts).Sometimes we agree on things,sometimes we do not.What i call her then and what she calls me is stictly between us.
I first noticed this forum because of the WOODWORKING aspect not the fact that there was gender involved.I still come here for the woodworking aspect of it not for anything else.SWMBO can be used to mean different things.If you do not like it,do not use it and ask participants in the forum not to use it.
If they do not listen,ban them.
End of discussion and let's get back to woodworking subjects if everyone would not mind????

Speaking of the woodworking forums,how about Norm Abrams or Bob(ill' let you get on with it)Villa??????


Phil

Have a good day.

[TDHofstetter (Guest)]

Hi, Raven. Neat name, incidentally.

I hope I'm not intruding here - I'm not sure just how gender-specific a site like "Women in Woodworking" is. Guess it just depends on the members' attitudes?

Phil, I'm gonna say my piece, too - don't anybody try to close out an issue until everybody loses interest!

Anyway, I post to 13 different woodworking forums out here, and I've quite freely used "SWMBO" and "LOML". My wife knows very well that I use both terms, and when I use either at home she gets a little twinkle in her eye - She knows I love her like crazy, and that I use both terms in endearment. I have lots of terms of endearment for her, and she for me - many of both are unprintable in publications intended for the 18-or-younger crowd. Others sound insulting, but we both enjoy them. We just had our 16th, so I guess we're not doing too badly by it...?

If for some reason I wanted to demean my wife, I'd come right out and do it - not hide behind a tongue-in-cheek acronym.

That's two cents.